Cuppa Tea with Karan Casey

Chat and songs with Waterford singer Karan Casey
Episode Trailer

What’s it like to have a head full of songs? Waterford singer Karan Casey talks about Irish songs, and how learning a song from someone is really about making connections. This conversation urged host Shannon Heaton to listen–and sing–just a little more.

There’s also a poem from Louis De Paor, and plenty of music.

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Special thanks to Karan for the great chat. And thank you to Matt Heaton for script editing and production music.

Episode 02 – Cuppa Tea with Karan Casey
Chat and songs with Waterford singer Karan Casey
This Irish Music Stories episode aired March 14, 2017
https://shannonheatonmusic.com/episode-02-cuppa-tea-with-karan-casey

Speakers, in order of appearance:
>> Shannon Heaton: flute player, singer, composer, teacher, and host of Irish Music Stories 
>> Karan Casey: Waterford-born folk singer, songwriter and activist who has appeared on stages and recordings with numerous projects
>> Louis de Paor: Cork-born Irish language poet and Director of the Centre for Irish Studies at NUI Galway

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>> Shannon: I’m Shannon Heaton, and this is Irish Music Stories, the show about traditional music, and the bigger stories behind it…

…like Karan Casey’s passion for Irish songs.

>> Karan Casey: I think they are the history and real narrative of Ireland. And, uh, I think they are a great gift to the nation. I think, you know, as a nation, we’ve dealt with an awful lot and we’re unable to express that only really through songs and poetry.

[ Music: “Sailing Off to the Yankee Land,” from Exiles Return

Artist: Karan Casey (voice), John Doyle (guitar) ]

That’s Karan singing with guitar player John Doyle. Now, Karan is well-known in the Irish music world, from her time with the band Solas and from her own solo recordings. 

In this episode, you’ll hear our one-on-one Cuppa Tea chat, a bit of music, and a poem from Louis De Paor. I hope you’ll enjoy this intimate interview. It’s variety from last month’s themed episode. I’ve got another big story in the works for next month.

Karan and I met up just days after the two thousand sixteen U.S. Presidential election. We were a room away from a big group rehearsal, so you’ll hear fiddles, talking, and singing in the background.

I asked Karan to talk about how she learned her songs. Now unlike some of her peers, Karan doesn’t come from a long line of singers. But growing up in Waterford, she did a lot of singing with a family up the road called the Forans. And then, meeting Dublin traditional singer and song collector Frank Harte—well, it really changed the course of her life.

>> Karan: I had the privilege of befriending Frank Harte and, to a lesser extent, Mick Moloney. And, you know, if anybody wants to come to my house and have a cup of tea and learn some songs, you’re all more than welcome (both giggling.) And that, you know, that’s how it works. So, you know, there are great older singers in America. Go and find them, go and knock on their door and say, “Hiya, I want to learn some songs, can you help me?” Um, and they will be out there.  Of course, do the stuff online but I think if we can reach out to one another and establish more of, you know, connection that way it’s really, really good.

[ Music: “Nightingale” (intro only), from Exiles Return
Artist: John Doyle ]

Irish traditional songs which I would have been devoting the past 30 years of my life to; I think they are the history and the real narrative of Ireland. I think they express all different points of view. And I think they are a great gift to the nation. And I treasure them and would ask everyone to try and listen to them and be exposed to them and be openminded to all the different viewpoints have within the song. I think, you know, as a nation, we’ve dealt with an awful lot and we’re unable to express that only really through songs and poetry. You know, if you ask and Irish person, “How are ya?” They’ll generally kind of, we look at our feet and go, “Well yeah, well grand.” But if you really listen to our songs, you’ll understand how we are. Frank Harte put it very well when he said that “Those in power write the history and (Shannon and Karan in unison) those who suffer write the songs.” And we have a tremendous amount of songs. I think they’re so valuable and I love them, and uh, as I get older (tears up) I value them more, I suppose.

>> Shannon: Yeah.

[ Music: “The Wounded Hussar,” from My Name is Napoleon Bonaparte
Artist: Frank Harte ]

>> Shannon: This song, “The Wounded Hussar”, and Frank Harte recorded it on his double CD set called “My Name is Napoleon Bonaparte.” All of the songs on the album are Napoleonic ballads. Yeah, that’s a type of song. Now, most Napoleonic ballads have to do with Ireland seeking liberation from British rule. So, on a very basic level, I guess, the songs are popular because Bonaparte sided against the British. But the songs also ring out about universal oppression, exile and loss. Karan says that these songs—and so many other traditional ballads—can be a great window into Irish singing and culture, for everybody.

>> Shannon: Do you have to know about Ireland? Do you have to know about Irish culture to sing these songs?

>> Karan: Well, in a way they’re kind of like a gateway into Irish culture. No, I think you absolutely don’t. Just the same way that I immerse myself in American history through jazz. I think traditional music offers a way in for people into Ireland. I’m listening to Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughn on cassettes, at that point in time… 

[ Music: “How High the Moon,” from The Legendary Decca Recordings
Composers: Morgan Lewis/Nancy Hamilton
Artist: Ella Fitzgerald ]

… and my ears are going red trying to transcribe it and learn it and do the acrobatic singing and beautiful, sophisticated melodies. There’s a lot of similarities. But, you know, when I actually got to New York and got into a jazz session, it was a very different live feeling and I found that I was very much within that culture and group. So, I think there is a bit of a difference of learning it in isolation. But I definitely think that if that’s all you can get to and that’s how you can get to it, that’s a great place to start.

>> Shannon: So, Karan knows what it’s like to be an “outsider,” from that time she spent in NY, trying to get inside jazz music and history. Jazz has helped her develop as a singer and she maintains an interest in it; but really, it’s Irish music she continues to explore and trace and teach. She talked about songs that have traveled, and about scholars like Jean Ritchie who helped document so many of these songs.

>> Karan: I’ve learned a lot about Irish history through these songs. You know, you’ve different characters that come up within the songs, and go and you go “All right, well who is that?” And you find out about it, so in a way, it’s just like an entrance or a pathway into Ireland and I use it as that. I use it to explore different avenues and different thought processes. And expressive forms of love or a night of play or a row in a village, or, I don’t know, a storm or a geographical change, or a sailing to America, or—you know everything has been described.

>> Shannon: Nice.

>> Shannon: There have been songs, now, that have traveled here—when Irish people have come here that have been changed over here and then sent back across the ocean numerous times.

>> Karan: Yes.

>> Shannon: And the songs have changed, in fact. So…

>> Karan: I mean even in this, in this—myself and Shannon are here at a Childsplay rehearsal, and ah, even that song “My Dear Companion”, ah what is that tune…

>> Shannon singing: Once I had a dear companion…

>> Shannon: And then you know it as…

>> Karan: I know that song from: (singing) Go and leave me if you wish to… So, that’s an older version. So, you can often find the threads, I mean particularly through Jean Ritchie. Jean Ritchie was just astonishing woman because she came to Ireland in 1956.  She went to West Cork and BBC commissioned her to go and she taped Bess Cronin.  And we wouldn’t have so many songs—you know, if you follow the threads from Ireland back to Jean Ritchie and back again. And if you look at “Siuil a Run” becoming “Johnny’s Gone For A Soldier” (singing) Where are you going to sweet Athy, a roo, a roo… becoming the American song here. So, we have numerous examples for us. I mean, we do have a great tendency and ability as Irish people to take the song from whatever and then regurgitate it back and then claim that it is Irish! (both laugh).

>> Shannon: And with that, Lissa Schneckenburger’s fiddle tune “Katrina” struck up again in the other room.

>> Shannon: Kind of nice to talk with the backdrop of fiddles…

>> Karan: Yes! Yeah.

>> Shannon: What about this relationship between singing and tune playing?

>> Karan: Well, you know it’s, it’s—when I was growing up, it was always mixed. We had, someone would sing a song and then people would play. And all of the older players, ah, played slow airs that they had learned from singers. So, there was a tremendous respect for singers. I do think, unfortunately, that over the last 25 years, um, a lot of the singers have been marginalized. You know, people will say to me, can you come along to sing, because, you know, otherwise we won’t get the gig (both laughing). 

>> Shannon: It is funny to me, a flute player, that Irish singers call instrumentalists “musicians.” I mean, we’re all musicians, whether we use the voice or the flute. But it’s true, the commercialization of Irish music can create divides between instrumentalists and singers. And between professionals and people who don’t make their living playing gigs (even though some of the non-pros are just as good).

 >> Karan: Contemporary Irish traditional singing now is mostly arranged. The songs are arranged with instrumentalists. And I don’t know of anybody who makes a living being a traditional singer just singing solo. So, I’d say, for the modern viewpoint, in a professional world, that’s what it is. Which is very different to somebody going down to their local pub singing—and highly-stylized individualized style of singing. So, you know, you’re talking about apples and oranges there.

>> Shannon: Since Karan started singing, record labels have come and gone. And the internet has completely changed the field. It’s all more accessible. And as Irish music has become more popular, I think there’s pressure to make the music speak to a wider audience. I tried out my theory on Karan:

>> Shannon: One way to expose people to these beautiful songs is to present them and to do it successfully, often means arranged them so that they can be accessible to more people?

>> Karan: Yes, yeah, and more people get to hear it, that’s good. And it also, it has to be said, I like those arrangements and I think they’re beautiful—musically as a whole. And I’m very interested in that. I’ve got better at that process. I’ve got more demanding, and I would now not sacrifice the song to the band members. I did that a lot when I was younger, but I don’t do it as much anymore. But I think if it is accessible for people that’s a good thing and if they get to hear it. And I don’t think we should get into the question or the notion that that’s less real or less authentic…

>> Shannon: Right.

>> Karan: …which I think is probably what I think we’re both talking about. Because they are both valid and I think really, in such a small, marginalized music form, we need to stick together…

>> Shannon: Yes.

>> Karan: …all the groups within that ecosystem need to support one another and stick together.

>> Shannon: I love Karan’s ecosystem idea. She talked about the touring bands with singing and instruments and the schools and competitions with singing and instruments. And then the sessions (the weekly Irish music gatherings), which usually center around just the instruments.

You’ll hear more about sessions in next month’s episode, “Every Tuesday at 9.” But I’ll tell you now that tune sessions are usually pretty fun. They usually happen in bars, and they usually don’t have much singing. So sometimes singers will do their own separate singing sessions. One singer at a time will have a chance to share a song. There’s a lot of listening, and not a lot of group music making. Here’s Karan’s take on that:  

 >> Karan: What happens is we have singing sessions and so, we’ve kind of separated out. And to be honest, they’re just—and I mean this in the best possible way, and I love singing and songs—but they’re sometimes, they’re just not as much fun. And so, at home I’ve initiated group singing. I have a lot of small kids that want to learn songs, and they love them, and so we sing them all together. 

[ Music: “Peigin Lettermore,” from Celtic Roots
Artist: Kids arranged by Donal Lunny & Mike McGoldrick ]

And I think it’s really vital that we do that because it’s really nice and then we get a communal sense together. You know, the kids love… “Oh do you have a Cork song, Karan?” You know, and then they like us and it’s fun! It’s not hard, it’s not a competition, it’s not fearful, it’s not about the ornaments. It’s about the actual beauty of coming together and singing the songs.

>> Shannon: This song, Peigin Lettermore, was sung by kids from Galicia, Ireland, and the UK for the 2010 Celtic Roots project. Everybody learned the same simple songs, so they’d have a common language. Kind of like what Mary McNamara in Clare does with her music exchanges—I got to visit with Mary in the “Trip to Sligo” episode.

Karan teaches like this with multigenerational groups, too. Like this one, where everybody learns the same song together:

[ Music: Karan’s live class singing ]

It’s one of Karan’s big initiatives, to make Irish singing social.

>> Karan: The reason I did that was probably because of coming to America and seeing people in singing sessions singing old timey music together and really enjoying themselves. And I thought “Oh, we should be doing that!” So, you know, I think we’re at a crossroads for singing, and we really need to have a lot of conversations about how we see ourselves going forward. I don’t know, I’m probably like a lone soldier in the field, but anyway, I’ll persevere, sure. Look, I don’t know how to do anything else! (Both laughing)

>> Shannon: So, would you say that the Irish singing tradition is a welcoming one for people coming in from non-Irish culture?

>> Karan: Yeah! I think the tradition is very welcoming in that anything goes at a traditional session. I think if there are people in the session who are telling you what to do and making you not feel welcome, that really you should strike them off your list. (Shannon laughing) and move on to the people who are being nice. You know, you’ll have the few who think it should be one way or the other. But it’s not, they’re like… I think the overwhelming idea is you can sing anything. You can sing your head voice, your chest voice. You can sing Tom Waits, you can sing a jazz song, you can sing a traditional song. In general, it’s traditional songs—that’s what people are coming together for. But everything is embraced. Yes, the few ‘purists’ do exist, but sure, we won’t pay much attention to them.

>> Shannon: And some of the purists are quite welcoming, too (both laugh)

>> Karan: Yes, I suppose, yes!

>> Karan: We’re very, very lucky that we still have it. We’re very lucky that we still have sessions, you know, instrumental sessions. And that people don’t have to have loads of money to come and be involved in that. Um, it’s one of the things, really, that I think I’ll probably spend the rest of my life trying to do, is enable people who don’t have as much money to be, um… to have access to this music. You know, I think it’s good on the instrumental side.  I think it’s not so good on the singing side. So, I would urge anybody, if you can—and if you have children—even if you have to trap them in the car (Shannon laughing) you know, expose them to these beautiful songs and take the time to sit down with them and teach them a song. 

[ Music: “Song of the Seal,” from Seal Maiden-Celtic Musical
Artist: Karan Casey ]

>> Shannon: Are there songs that are just anthems for you that have been with you for a long time?

>> Karan: Yeah, definitely. Um, and I—it’s funny—like, I think “King’s Shilling”—I really love singing that song all of the time. Um, and it’s just a great song—it does actually what I’m talking about in that it shows the point of view of so many different perspectives, you know. The woman who’s left behind—it’s told from her, mainly from her point of view. But the soldier who is forced into war and then the futility of war. And it is sadly always relevant, which I didn’t really think when I was learning it at the start.

>> Shannon: Will you sing a little bit of it?

[ Music: “King’s Shilling,” from Live in our interview room
Artist: Karan Casey ]

>> Karan: It’s lovely

>> Shannon: Yeah.

>> Shannon: “The King’s Shilling,” is well-known in Irish circles. But it’s actually a relatively recent composition. It was written by Scottish songwriter Ian Sinclair in the 1970s, and Karan learned it directly from her mentor, Dublin singer Frank Harte. Many Irish singers think of it as a traditional song, since it’s really been adopted into the repertoire. And that’s the thing about a shared, aural tradition. When you learn songs from one another, sometimes you don’t really know where they all came from.

I asked Karan how it feels to present a song like this. A song with a message about the futility of war.

>> Karan: It’s like a social responsibility, that’s what I see it as. And how you present that song. What it says. Does it connect? And does it bring people together? And are you, you know, you have to be, uh, I suppose socially responsible and aware, you know, in that. Because it’s a lot of power—you can persuade things of a lot by singing a song. They’re very persuasive. And so, I think you have to be careful and respectful. And um, probably something I didn’t do in my younger days was listen to people with oppositional viewpoints. And so, I would be definitely trying to do that more now. I mean, it’s difficult. 

>> Shannon: It’s very difficult.

>> Karan: It’s very difficult and I have a temper. (both laugh) But I need to do it. I think we all need to do it.

>> Shannon: Yeah, and what a nice way to do it… a really melodious way where the idea is to harmonize.

>> Karan: Yeah.

>> Shannon: Whether in unison or singing harmonies.

>> Karan: Yeah.

>> Shannon: The idea is to sing in concert together.

>> Karan: Yes, but it’s also to be really aware of the text, you know, the text. When you put words out there, you can’t take them back. And so, it’s to be really mindful of what those words actually say, you know. Because they matter. They do make a difference. No matter what we say, I’m not some hippy dippy philanthropic loo la. You know, they do actually matter. And we need to start thinking about what we say and how words affect people and, um, being careful, you know. I don’t mean being politically correct, I mean being mindful. And trying to be kind to one another.

>> Shannon: That’s why I’m talking to a lot of people. 

>> Karan: Yeah.

>> Shannon: Just to dig, you know, I mean I love this music so much…

>> Karan: Yeah.

>> Shannon: …and I love these questions. And they’re bigger questions than Irish music. 

>> Karan: They are, yeah.

>> Shannon: They are, right?

>> Karan: Yeah

>> Shannon: It’s how do we get along in society and how do we support each other…

>> Karan: Yeah

>> Shannon: …and how do we also be authentic in our own experiences and how do we, you know, be unique?

>> Karan: Yes.

>> Shannon: And do so with peace but also challenge each other and not be afraid of strife. 

>> Karan: Exactly, because I think…and I think I might be guilty, myself, in the past of, you know, of so concerned in changing the world and using the songs to change the world. There’s a huge history of social responsibility withing traditional Irish singing and folk singing in particular. And they’re different things and I used that as a vehicle for that. And I sometimes wonder did I sort of lord over people and not allow them their opinion—or not listen, I suppose. So, I question that deeply in myself now. Particularly after Trump, that we really do need to listen to the people, even if they have a different opinion to ours. I find it difficult.

>> Shannon: Yeah, yeah, I do too.

>> Shannon: Now, this was right after the startling 2016 U.S. Presidential election. We were both a bit raw and confused. Perhaps not every Irish Music Stories interview will get so macro and reflective. But I decided to share this last bit, because, well, at the end of the day, Irish music is about listening and learning from one another. It’s about finding common songs and tunes to share together, above everything else. Oh, and figuring out who you know in common—that’s a big thing in the Irish music and dance world. Establishing connections. Establishing common ground. That’s imperative for a night or a moment of Irish music to happen.

To finish our wonderful moment of conversation and music, I asked Karan to sing another favorite.

>> Karan: I really like “A Stor Mo Chroi” 

[ Music;  “A Stor Mo Chroi,” from Live in our interview room
Artist: Karan Casey ]

>> Shannon: Lovely. And there, there’s a meditation on doing your own thing and having other opinions beside you. And you’re singing this beautiful song this lovely morning while the piano was in a totally different key in the back! (Both laughing)

>> Karan: Exactly!

>> Shannon: Great, well thanks for talking to me, Karan!

>> Karan: No! Thank you!

>> Shannon: Folks, thanks for tuning in. This episode of Irish Music Stories was written and produced by me, Shannon Heaton. My thanks to Karan Casey for taking the time to chat, during our long week of rehearsals and performances!

You can head to IrishMusicStories.org to learn more about the music in this episode, and to find links of Karan singing. If you’d like to help support the show, click the Donate Button. This is a labor of love, so every little bit helps.  It helps defray travel and production costs. And it shows me that this is worthwhile for you. And that means a great deal to me. 

To thank you for listening, this episode’s Coda features poet Louis de Paor, reading his poem “Didjeridu”. I asked Louis to read his poem first in Irish, the language in which he wrote it. And then to talk a bit more about the poem and read the English translation. For this first time around, whether you speak Irish or not, I wanted to share with you the idea, as Louis put it so beautifully, of letting a poem wash over you and reveal itself gradually:

>> Louis de Paor: A poem or song or a piece of music declares itself gradually and reveals itself gradually. And it works in different ways to the language of logic or the language of prose. And probably the best response to it is a lack of resistance, you know. To be happy, to be just confused for a time. To be not quite sure what it is that is unsettling in the songs that you’ve heard or reassuring or whatever it is. And it’s, it’s as if music and poetry sometimes come in at another level, below the level of the rational intellect. I don’t want to Romanticize it too much, but nonetheless there’s a truth to that. That there is a kind of shortcut to the heart, if you like, in the best songs and poems.

[ Poem: “Didjeridu,” Poem recited from Live in our interview room
Performer & Poet: Louis de Paor ]

>> Shannon: So now that we’ve let us wash over us, can you tell me about Dijeridu?

>> Louis: Yeah, actually it’s a poem about not understanding the music of the dijeridu. I lived in Australia for a long time, and this idea that you can have a whole music that’s contained in two notes—the didjeridu can only play two notes. But if your ear is attuned to the acoustic of the didjeridu, then it communicates a whole world, it communicates natural sounds of one kind of another. But unless your ear is on the same wavelength, all you hear is the two individual notes, and they don’t mean very much. And I have this idea that while multiculturalism and intercultural dialog is really, really important, one of the things that makes each individual culture unique and worthy of preservation of its uniqueness, is that beyond a certain point you can’t enter that culture. You have to have grown up in that culture. And you can’t appropriate it or inhabit it entirely coming from the outside in. And some might think that’s a type of exclusivism. I don’t think so at all. I think it’s an acknowledgement of difference and diversity as diversity, rather than as a kind of amalgam that simply allows you to wander in and out of different rooms in the same house we all occupy. I mean, some doors are only partly open, perhaps.

>> Shannon: In my efforts to understand Irish music, and to get inside where it’s been and where it’s going, sometimes it’s a powerful reminder for me to step back and allow the Irish tradition to be its own book, with some secrets I may never fully understand. My thanks to Louis de Paor for sharing his poem and for challenging and inspiring me. Here’s the poem again, translated into English.

[ Louis de Paor recites “Didjeridu” in English ]

“First House in Connaught Reel Set,” from Hangin’ at the Crossroads
Artist: Ceili Bandits (Yvonne Casey, fiddle; Eoin O’Neill, bouzouki; Quentin Cooper, dijeridu)

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Cast of Characters

Episode guests in order of appearance

Waterford-born folk singer, songwriter and activist who has appeared on stages and recordings with numerous projects

Cork-born Irish language poet and Director of the Centre for Irish Studies at NUI Galway

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