How do Scottish and Irish music intersect? How are they distinct? And why do so many trendy tunes come from Scotland? Host Shannon Heaton talks with Aaron Jones, Ed Pearlman, Natalie Haas and Hanneke Cassel to learn what it means to be a traditional Scottish musician today—in Scotland, and in the States. Warning: this episode contains very few mentions of haggis… or kilts.
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Thank you to everybody for listening. And a special thank you to this month’s underwriters: Sharon Murphy, Mike Lagana, Brian Edmiston, Michael Craine, David Vaughan, Brian Benscoter, Joe Garrett, and Gerry Corr for underwriting this episode.
Episode 31-The Scottish Connection: How Scottish and Irish music intersect
This Irish Music Stories episode aired July 9, 2019
https://shannonheatonmusic.com/episode-31-the-scottish-connection
– transcript edited by Tom Frederick –
Speakers, in order of appearance
>> Shannon Heaton: flute player, singer, composer, teacher, and host of Irish Music Stories
>> Aaron Jones: English-born, Scottish-based bouzouki/guitar player and singer who has performed with numerous bands including Old Blind Dogs.
>> Nigel Heaton: young announcer for Irish Music Stories
>> Ed Pearlman: Maine-based fiddle player and teacher of Scottish and Cape Breton music, and co-founder of the Boston Scottish Fiddle Club
>> Natalie Haas: Cellist from California who plays different fiddle genres and performs with fiddler Alasdair Fraser
>> Hanneke Cassel: Oregon native and Boston-based fiddler/composer who performs and teaches Scottish, Cape Breton and original music.
———
>> Shannon: I’m Shannon Heaton. And this is Irish Music Stories, the show about traditional music, and the bigger stories behind it…
[Music: “Medium Man,” from Happy Daze
Artist: Battlefield Band ]
…like how Scottish and Irish music do and don’t intersect. And what it means to be a traditional Scottish musician today:
>> Aaron: Scotland always kind of looked to Ireland. It was almost like Ireland had, um, it knew its identity way before we did.
>> Shannon: That’s Scotland-based singer and bouzouki player Aaron Jones. When I was in his neighborhood this Spring, in the Dumfries and Galloway region, Aaron and I talked about how the Scottish traditional music scene has been developing over the last few decades.
…and we talked about why there are so many trendy tunes and adventurous collaborations coming out of Scotland today.
I also chatted with fiddle players Ed Pearlman and Hanneke Cassel, and cellist Natalie Haas about Scottish music in the States.
Before I tuck into this special Scottish installment, my son Nigel and I want to thank our sponsors:
>> Nigel: Thank you to Sharon Murphy, Mike Lagana, Brian Edmiston, Michael Craine, David Vaughan, Brian Benscoter, Joe Garrett, and Gerry Corr.
>> Shannon: Thank you for donating this month, and for helping me build the show. To support future editions, please head to IrishMusicStories dot org. And thank you.
So here we go, an Irish Music Stories exploration of all (or SOME) things Scottish. Heads up: I’ll focus on mostly instrumental music for this episode, leaving the rich Scottish song tradition for later.
Also, there’s very little mention of haggis or Kilts…
[Music: “Hector the Hero Medley,” from 2015 Worlds Competition
Artist: Inveraray District Pipe Band ]
The Scottish Tourist Board is big on kilts. And Tartan. And it’s beautiful, especially when you see it in the context of a mighty pipe band. Everybody wearing these kilts and marching along with this incredible music. It’s pretty special and it feels very Scottish, very majestic, ceremonial. But there’s more to Scottish culture than kilts. And, in fact, singer and bouzouki player Aaron Jones didn’t turn up for our conversation at the friendly Stove Cafe in Dumfries wearing a kilt. Nor does he wear one onstage with his band Old Blind Dogs.
Aaron was actually born in England, to a musical family from Northern Ireland. But he’s lived and performed in Scotland for nearly 30 years. HIS music is that of his adopted home. He was named ‘Instrumentalist of the Year’ by the Scots Trad Music Awards. His band Old Blind Dogs is one of Scotland’s biggest trad acts. He also performs with singers Emily Smith and Robyn Stapleton, and his flute and fiddle playing wife, Claire Mann. They’re all established Scottish performers, too.
So what makes their music Scottish? And how does it relate (or NOT relate) to Irish traditional music? And why was there so much background noise during our chat at The Stove Cafe:
>> Aaron: My family are Irish and my feet are in both camps, but I moved to Scotland when I was 11. There are, at the time when you went to a tune in Scotland, there was a very good chance of more than 50% of the music would still be Irish. It was almost like Ireland had, um, it knew it’s identity way before we did. And I think maybe that’s because it’s an independent country rather than us. But just recently, um, there’s definitely been an upsurge, you know. We’ve found our feet. We’ve found our identity. There’s much more belief in the music. And now when you go out and join in with sessions you’ll hear pipes and you’ll hear Scotch tunes and strathspeys and 2/4s.
[ Music: “Lady Carmichael,” from Thunderstruck
Artist: Gordon Duncan ]
>> Shannon: Interesting that you would say that … Scotland had to find its way. It’s kind of ironic in a way you have the most strident symbols of them all.
>> Aaron: Yeah. I think with the thing with the pipes, I mean the pipes are a difficult instrument to play above and beyond anything else. But there are also limitations, you know. Like kind of, you know, it’s why so many pipe tunes are that sort of A Mixolydian.
>> Shannon: Yeah, even though the pipes, especially the big, loud Highland pipes, seem like an irrepressible symbol of Scotland. They really aren’t conversational instruments. They work best in modes like A Mixolydian. Like here’s an A ‘Mix’ scale.
[ Shannon plays mixolydian scale on the piano]
[Music: “A Modal Groove,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]
It’s less idiomatic for pipers to tuck into D and G Major flute and fiddle tunes all night. So they can’t really play in any old session. Which is further isolating. Also, they can’t blend as easily because they’re really loud. They’re kind of in a field of their own, literally.
And they were banned for a long time, during which time, people SANG the pipe tunes to keep them alive.
[Music: “Strathspey,” from Celtic Mouth Music
Artist: John Macdonald ]
>> Aaron: And then there was the whole thing when the pipes were banned for such a long time and that created the mouth music. So you know, again, out of adversity something good ultimately happened. But, em, yeah, it is strange that it’s not all pipe oriented. But I think once again that looking towards Ireland and seeing and hearing all these combinations, Scots were so very quick to follow and pick up.
>> Shannon: Until fairly recently, like until maybe the mid 90s, Scottish players, I think, often looked to Ireland— to music trends there, and to the tunes themselves.
[ Music: “Bb intro,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]
This makes a lot of sense. Ireland is geographically close. And the two traditional cultures have a lot in common. The Celtic languages of Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic (pr. Gallic) are closely related. Both cultures value quick wit. Both have strong ballad traditions.
And both have jigs, reels, and ceili dances. (Though the Scots spell their C-E-I-L-I dances with a DH at the end, which my friend Carol explained was the original spelling—the Irish actually eliminated many mid-word and end of word consonant clusters in the mid 20th century).
But there are deeper distinctions as well. The Irish trad world seems to pay more attention to regionality than the Scots. Even now, in 2019, with all the global travel, and commercial recordings, and online access to traditional music and dance, many practitioners in the Irish tradition still claim allegiance to a particular regional style.
Like the Sligo style with lots of slurring and ornamentation. Or the Dongegal style with even rhythms and staccato sounds.
Regional styles can still be a really big thing for Irish players. And there ARE specific traditions in Scotland, too. But I don’t think they have quite the same importance or lure that IRISH regional styles have.
[ Music: “Lon-Dubh,” (the Blackbird), from Lon-Dubh
Artist: Julie Fowlis ]
For example, the Wrigley Sisters from the Orkney Islands play lots of Scandi-sounding tunes, particular to their region. But they also write a lot of their own tunes. Same with Julie Fowlis, who focuses on Gaelic songs from the Hebrides, but she sings other stuff (like Beatles songs), too.
[Music fades]
And even seminal acts like the almost 50-year strong Battlefield Band. THEY feature Highland piping and old Scottish ballads— but they also include the occasional Irish reel written by an American. This is their version of my tune Anniversary Reel.
[Music: “The Anniversary Reel,” from Out for the Night
Artist: Battlefield Band ]
Aaron Jones’s band Old Blind Dogs mixes it up, too. They’re from Aberdeenshire and feature songs from their hometown, sung in the local Doric dialect.
But they also incorporate lots of different Scottish music and world music. This is a fairly typical approach for all modern Celtic bands—Irish, Scottish, you name it. But the “open border” policy seems to be a particularly prominent feature of the Scottish tradition. And it has been for decades.
Like when folk clubs started in Scotland in the early 1960s, people were welcomed to perform Scottish, Irish, English, and American tunes and songs. Even though the clubs in England insisted on local folk songs only. Nope, the Scottish clubs welcomed all songs. They still do.
[Music fades]
>> Aaron: Scotland, our music is very mongrel. We do have a regionality per se, but it’s not so important. We are allowed to take bits from other places. There always was an evolving tradition.
>> Shannon: And from my perspective, the Scottish tradition seems to be ever evolving. And ever at ease in moving from fiddle and Highland bagpipe tunes from the West Coast; down to North England-influenced ballads and wee border pipes from the Scottish Lowlands; over to fiddle and cello strathspeys from the Northeast; and over to more newly composed songs by musicians like Davie Robertson, arranged here by the Old Blind Dogs.
[ Music: “Star o’ the Bar,” from Four on the Floor
Artist: Old Blind Dogs, feat. Aaron Jones vocals ]
>> Aaron: We don’t feel in Scotland like we have to be specific to our region. We can steal a little bit of that and that’s what we do. No rules per se. And those lines are being blurred in Ireland, too, I think, and there’s lots of young bands coming through.
[Music ends]
>> Shannon: There are lots of bands in Scotland today that are groove-heavy … and festival-ready.
[ Music: “Nonna Pina / Space Ghettos,” from Free One
Artist: Kinnaris Quintet ]
Like Treacherous Orchestra and Elephant Sessions. And as Aaron mentioned, musical lines are being blurred with Irish bands, too, like Notify and Moxie.
These bands are great. But except for the Kinnaris Quintet here who lay down with nary a dude onstage, most of those bands are all guys. Yeah, there are groups with a woman on fiddle or vocals. And some have more inclusive lineups, like the Outside Track, or Blazin Fiddles.
But gender aside, these bands didn’t lick their music off a shtone. I’ll bet most of them looked UP to progressive Scottish acts who pioneered new possibilities for trad… And to groundbreaking acts before them, like the Battlefield Band, and the Tannahill Weavers, and Silly Wizard.
[Music ends]
>> Aaron: At one point that was looked down upon as like, you don’t know what you are, your music has no identity. But I think now that we’ve engaged that, it means that lots of young musicians who are coming through are writing stuff. The things that we think are traditional from a hundred years ago were probably considered outrageous when they were, when they were done a hundred years ago. We now have this carte blanche to just do what we want. Within reason. I mean, I’m a little bit older than some of the younger musicians coming through and I still think there needs to be a serious nod and some respect to what’s come before.
>> Shannon: Innovation within reason, and with historical perspective. This seems to be Aaron’s ideal.
[ Music: Modal groove reprise ]
And he’s witnessed a lot of musical collaborations in the central belt of Scotland, in the cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow.
For a long time, Edinburgh was where the monied people lived and where traditional music was anglicized to entertain rich residents and industry-heavy Glasgow brought folks from all over who went there for work, and who ended up rubbing shoulders with neighbors from different traditions.
[ Music fades ]
But both cities have become melting pots of rural and regional styles:
Aaron: I was sort of on the Edinburgh scene when I, when I started off. And it was a real hot pot when I lived in Edinburgh, it was sort of early nineties and bands like Shooglenifty were forming in Christie’s bar. There were different sessions. There was an Irish tune that I was actually a part of because my background was Irish. There was the Tron, which was the Wrigley Sisters from Orkney. And then there were young musicians arriving in town, like Aidan O’Rourke and Chris Drever, all these guys who’ve gone on to form Lau, which; who are really pushing boundaries.
[ Music: “The Burrian,” from Arc Light
Artist: Lau ]
This is from Lau’s album Arc Light, one of my favorite albums on my running playlist. It feels Scottish, and TRAD, even through all the innovation. It sounds like it was forged among a community of musicians and listeners who came along to hear new sounds emerge. But maybe that’s because I know the backstory:
>> Aaron: There was a kind of breakout thing where there’d been a lot of Irish music and suddenly people like, “we can do what we want, we can play what we want.” It was such a vibrant scene. And there was so much music that people had that opportunity to go, you know, go down to Legends where there’s a really good poet, and then there’s a guy on drums and a funk bass player. And Angus Grant’s going to play his fiddle with them.
>> Shannon: With no shirt and a big beard.
>> Aaron: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
[ Music: “Scraping the Barrel,” from The Arms Daughter’s Dealer
Artist: Shooglenifty ]
>> Shannon: Angus Grant plays fiddle with the band Shooglenifty. And he doesn’t always wear a shirt. But he wears a lot of outside influences.
Grant and Shooglenifty have influenced many other bands. So has Lau. And Malinky. And John McCusker. And Old Blind Dogs. And the Poozies. And many other acts who combine instruments in various ways. They don’t just play long notes in the background… and they don’t just play the first tune 3x, the second tune 3x, the third tune 3x. The ‘Three, three, and three’ route.
>> Aaron: I think what the Scots musicians did, just along with the whole sort of package, was look at production, look more at arrangements. I mean, it’s not a bad thing, but there was a tendency for certain bands to go down the three, three and three route, you know, and not really look intensely close at the intros and the outros sort of thing. There’s always an element of over-arrangement—as somebody with an Irish background that I’m kind of wary of. But in terms of coming out on stage, there’s coordination, there’s pre-production, there’s a lighting guy, there’s a sound guy.
[ Music: “G Meditation,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]
>> Shannon: And there’s funding. Scotland has offered its traditional artists lots and lots of support, compared to Ireland… and especially compared to the States, the Massachusetts Cultural Council notwithstanding, with whose support I produced the first season of Irish Music Stories.
But in Scotland there are even more incentives and rewards for musicians to package their acts as professional, FUNDABLE investments.
What does this mean for musicians… and for the music?
Aaron: It’s meant for some of, you know, the things that have been successful and stuck are really exciting and fresh. Not all of it works. That’s part of the process. But it means that the tradition is engaging new people and that’s very exciting. That’s why it’s in such rude health.
[ Music: “Sabai Sabai,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]
>> Shannon: Rude health might mean ample creativity… PLUS Fiscal health, right? When performers have money to pay collaborators, and buy plane tickets, and book studio time, there are fewer limitations. And when venues have budgets, they can properly promote events and build audiences.
For the last 25 years, Glasgow’s Celtic Connections festival has helped build an audience for traditional music.
[Music fades]
And during his tenure as festival director, Donald Shaw really focused on cultural exchange between musicians. Like the String Sisters—a band with six fiddlers from Nordic and various Celtic traditions. They started when Shetland fiddle player Catriona Macdonald spearheaded a debut performance at Celtic Connections.
[ Music: “Open to the Elements,” from Between Wind and Water
Artist: String Sisters ]
>> Aaron: I think Celtic connections is a real melting pot, you know, cause it is three weeks. Everybody’s there over three weeks, pretty much on and off.
Most people will, at some point, we’ll make a trip to do it. And there’s sessions, there’s after-show stuff, and there’s great opportunities to go and hear other bands play. And you do really get a sense of what’s happening on the Celtic music scene all over the world. And what’s working and what inspires you. You hear/see/feel, wow, that was really awesome. I’ve never heard that Gaelic [pr: Gallic] rapper before. But you would take a little bit and say okay, well if that’s possible and then maybe we can try this or we can try that. It’s opened a lot of doors creatively for people, you know… It’s great.
>> Shannon: Aaron Jones has established himself as a creative Scottish musician, and he continues to experiment with what that means…. at a time when Scotland itself faces uncertainties, with Brexit looming:
>> Aaron: It’s really great that at such a difficult political time, Scotland, the traditional elements of Scotland are so strong and so proud and so identified that, you know, I think moving forwards, that puts us in a very good position, whatever the outcomes, to promote Scots culture. And, you know, be a part of something that we’re all proud of. And not be, you know, looking to Ireland. We’re quite introverted now, and that’s probably a good position to be in when things are so uncertain as far as Europe goes. Well we’ll see what the future has, we’ll never know.
>> Shannon: Good luck with that.
>> Aaron: Yeah. Fingers and toes crossed.
[ Music: “Cuffe’s,” from On the Edge
Artist: Ed Pearlman and Neil Pearlman ]
>> Shannon: Back in the U.S., Ed Pearlman plays Scottish and Cape Breton music. He judges fiddle competitions throughout the States, and he co-founded the Boston Scottish Fiddle Club in 1981 (after many trips to Scotland). He’s been an advocate for traditional Scottish music in New England ever since.
>> Ed: When I went to Scotland in the 80s, I remember it was hard to find Scottish sessions. They had, all the sessions were Irish sessions and then they’d have a Scottish night when people played Scottish music. I believe the first recordings of the beautiful Scots Gaelic songs were by Planxty and other Irish concert bands, you know. It’s not that way anymore because, they’ve grown up into the, uh, the Scottish Parliament, in ‘99. There’s been tremendous appreciation for their own music, It’s become really vibrant.
>> Shannon: Ed’s referring to the Scottish Parliament that was established after Scots voted to become a devolved power from Britain back in 1999. This gave Scotland some autonomy to adjust taxes and immigration & public policies.
[Music fades]
>> Ed: One of the problems for Scots, has been this dual citizenship where if they, uh, if they’re too nationalistic, then they’re against Britain. So I just used to see, not anymore so much, but I used to see a lot of timidity where people were really proud of Scot/Scottish culture. But they felt like if they went too far, they’d be offending the British side of themselves. It’s almost schizoid, you know. And so there’s this damper put on, I thought.
[ Music: “Triumph Theme,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist: Matt Heaton (guitar) ]
They’ve grown to really develop and appreciate, uh, the Scottish culture. Partly by inspiration from all the great Irish bands, also the Cape Breton bands coming over. And they really realized they could do more with their own music, um…
>> Shannon: Interesting. So by Irish and Cape Bretoners going over to Scotland, they’re helping Scottish people love their own?
>> Ed: I think this was back in the ‘80s, really. I remember Brian McNeil talking about how he saw a singer from Nova Scotia who was just so out there, and barebones. And so gutsy. And he thought well we’re very timid. He felt. You know, he wanted to be stronger. And I think Battlefield Band tried to do that, you know, make it stronger.
[Music fades]
>> Shannon: The Battlefield Band formed in 1969, inspired to BE SCOTTISH, in part, by Irish and Cape Breton acts. The band’s motto is “forward with Scotland’s past.”
[ Music: “The 24th Guards Brigade At Anzio,” from Happy Daze
Artist: Battlefield Band ]
And their combination of pipe and fiddle tunes and ballads remained consistently powerful through many line-up changes.
And as they took Scottish music around the world, with inimitable style, young musicians were offered more and more opportunities to go deeper into Scottish trad. Like the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, formerly The Royal Scottish Academy, added a full traditional music program to their folk harp offerings in 1986.
>> Ed: They created the program at the, at the academy there to actually have traditional music, which was a big triumph. So they teach Scottish traditional music.
[Music fades]
There are kids growing up learning this stuff and they’re also going to the Feises and there’s like 75 of these week-long educational events that started out in the Gaelic part of Scotland, but spread around.
[ Music: “Cathkin Braes,” from Another Gem
Artist: Phil Cunningham and Aly Bain ]
>> Shannon: I wondered about these events like Feises, which feature competition. A lot of my friends in the States got into Scottish fiddling through Fiddle Contests.
>> Ed: Competition culture, like if people are really aiming toward competitions, they want to win. And they want to not make mistakes. I’ve done a lot of judging, so I’ve seen a lot of that. But I really appreciate the people willing to take a risk and put their heart into it?
[Music fades]
>> Shannon: Like Ed’s kids Neil and Lily Pearlman. On piano and fiddle, they took some risks with their band Alba’s Edge.
[ Music: “Run to Fly,” from Run to Fly
Composer: Neil Pearlman
Artist: Alba’s Edge ]
I asked Ed for more of a lowdown on the Scottish scene here in the States—how it does and maybe DOESN’T intersect with Irish musicians and events. Ed took me way back in time:
[Music fades]
>> Ed: The Scots came over much earlier. They came over really early in America.
[ Music: “Travel Theme,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]
And then there’s the confusion of the Scots who went to, uh, Northern Ireland for a few generations and were persecuted by the changes in rules in the church and changes in the rents and all this stuff and they didn’t really fit it. And they took the empty flax ships back to America. And then they’d go to Appalachia. And these were people who didn’t even consider themselves anything. They were just considering themselves pioneers.
It’s my feeling that the Irish had a country, you know, they’re proud of their culture and proud of their, their nation. And they were happy to promote it. And the Scots didn’t have it. I mean, were they going to promote Scotland or Britain? It was a little harder to identify and harder to shout your voices and say, here we are.
[Music fades]
But their music, they’d have a tune, like, called Lord McDonald’s and they didn’t want to talk about Lords and ladies. So they changed the name to Leather Britches,
[ Music: “Leather Britches,” from Aereo-Plain
Artist: John Hartford ]
>> Shannon: Starting in the early 1700s, waves of immigrants from Scotland and Ireland poured into North America. 150 years later, the tunes and songs had morphed and mixed on those Appalachian porches. And they had absorbed rhythms and sounds from African gourd banjos, they’d incorporated field hollers, and spirituals, and slave songs (though the Scottish and African American musicians themselves didn’t always mix).
Scottish music also travelled to Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia. And there it became its own distinct thing…. a real time capsule of old style Scottish playing. But the Cape Breton Connection is another story.
But in the hills of North Carolina, those Scottish tunes and songs—and the performance style—it all changed so much. And it formed the basis of modern country, Gospel, and American old time music, none of which sounds very Scottish.
[Music fades]
So nowadays, when Scottish-style players want a tune (and they don’t have a local Scottish session to go to), they might go to an Irish bar, where the style is closer.
There are lots of Irish pubs in the states. So it isn’t hard to find an Irish session.
[Music: “After Hours Theme,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]
But of course, at Irish pubs, Irish tunes and culture are the focus. (And haggis usually isn’t on the menu…)
>> Ed: They might have Irish music and they don’t want any Scottish music. I’ve been at a session where some people invited me to play some Scottish tunes and we played a whole set of Scottish tunes and people suddenly all had to go to the bathroom. Like they left.
>> Shannon: Hahaha, too much A!
>> Ed: Too much Scottish! I just would love people to relax a little bit and appreciate each other’s music and not feel like they have to go to the bathroom cause somebody’s playing Scottish. You know?
>> Shannon: I mean, could it be as simple as we don’t know many Scottish tunes?
>> Ed: That could be.
>> Shannon: I mean, if you came into a session; Ed’s here. I might play Irishman’s Heart to the Ladies, I might play Miss Clouds. I might play Lord Mcdonald’s. Um, I might play MacArthur road. And beyond that I’d say…
>> Ed: Laird of Drumblaire, Angus Campbell’s Reel. You know those?
>> Shannon: I don’t know
[ Ed lilts the tune]
>> Shannon: Yup.
>> Ed: And I have noticed a lot of Scottish tunes that I’ve seen in sessions were the ones that were recorded by Johnny Cunningham. Really interesting ones.
>> Shannon: I’d say some of those Gordon Duncan tunes. We know the High Drive, usually. We know the Humours of Tulla.
>> Ed: I don’t know that one.
[Shannon lilts]
>> Ed: Oh, right, right.
>> Shannon: I think maybe the Battlefield Band recorded it?
>> Ed: Yup. And there’s slow ones. Wild Mountain Thyme. I used to always finish the Hatch Shell concerts with that. Everybody could play it, or sing it.
[ Music: “Will Ye Go Lassie, Go,” (AKA Wild Mountain Thyme), from Wild Mountain Thyme
Artist: The McPeake Family ]
>> Shannon: Ed ran this annual concert at the Boston Hatch Shell from 1987-1994. It was one big evening show on Labor Day weekend, featuring world-class Irish, Scottish, and Cape Breton musicians. Ed also ran the Boston Scottish Fiddle Club for 18 years. During his tenure, he set a strict Scottish agenda. His son, Neil, leads the club’s performance group today, the Boston Scottish Fiddle Orchestra. And he keeps the focus on Scottish repertoire.
>> Ed: Like the Scottish Fiddle Club, I used to insist on Scottish tunes at the sessions, because I knew people knew Irish tunes. I liked Irish tunes, but I wanted a place where people had to rack their brains, really learn and play Scottish tunes. To see what it felt like to have a Scottish session. So it was really fun to do. It wasn’t trying to be exclusive, but to foster a feeling, enjoyment of that style at the time.
>> Shannon: Because Scots style is distinct from Irish. No matter how much common ground we find with tunes, the traditions do have different basic approaches.
>> Ed: Scots love to hold the long note and where the Irish would like to fill it in with something and it’s just little differences. But, yeah, I think the Scots really love the downbeat.
>> Shannon: Definitely a different rhythmic feel.
[Music:
>> Shannon: You can learn a lot about a culture by getting inside its humor AND its rhythmic pulse.
Like, a reel in the hands of an Irish player… If I were to academically break it down into 8 beats (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8), I’d say the emphasis for Irish players would usually land on beats 3 and 7. We might push the emphasis around a bit. But 3 & 7 that’s the simple story.
Meanwhile, a Scottish player is gonna emphasize 1 & 4 (and also 7), as demonstrated here by Hanneke Cassel, whom you’ll meet later on:
[ Music: “Scottish Reel Rhythm Demo,” from Instructional Video
Artist: Hanneke Cassel ]
[ Music: “Mutey Big Build,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton
>> Shannon:It’s a different approach. A different effect. And maybe a slightly different worldview. So here we are, two Americans, talking about stylistic nuances in Irish and Scottish music. Funny, right?
[Music fades]
>> Ed: It’s a little confusing, I think, when people know that I don’t have any Scottish blood, but I spent half my life really doing Scottish music. The thing to me, I think somebody who really loves that kind of music, and understands it from the inside out, rather than just copying what they hear; I think the only difference between a person like that who’s not from that culture and somebody who’s in that culture who really appreciates it, because there’s a lot of people who are from Ireland who don’t care about Irish music and people from Scotland who don’t care about Scottish music; so people who really care about it who are within that culture the only difference is that they get to be proud of it, you know? Because it’s theirs and they have also kind of responsibility to keep it going, keep it alive. And the rest of us really can love it and appreciate it and be happy about it.
>> Shannon: But we don’t have the same moral mantle.
>> Ed: Exactly. Hahaha!
[ Music: “The Low Hum,” from California Calling
Composer: Laura Cortese
Artist: Laura Cortese & the Dance Cards ]
>> Shannon: Okay, so maybe Americans don’t have the moral imperative to preserve Scottish music. Many stateside players don’t have the personal or family connection. And since we are a stew of melting pot mongrels anyway, maybe it makes sense that we might be the biggest innovators.
And early on we were. There was a lot of cross-invention and embellishment of those Scottish and Irish and English and African tunes and songs in the Southern U.S. in the 18th and 19th centuries.
And today there are adventurous stateside acts like Soulsha, the Hanneke Cassel Band, Farsan, MAC, and Jenna and Mairi.
[Music fades]
But there are also fiddle clubs— like the one Ed started in Boston—clubs that are trying to ground the participants in traditional Scottish material first.
[ Music: “Crabbit Shona,” from The Red House – The Heritage of the Scottish Fiddle
Artist: Chris Duncan, Catherine Strutt & Julian Thompson ]
And the most active, public advocacy group for Scottish dance with live music— the Royal Scottish Country Dance Society—focuses on formal, tartan-clad balls. The RSCDS photos and videos feature lots of kilts.
Is this because participants (especially those outside of Scotland) want to be respectful of cultural traditions?
Or is it because a lot of these musicians and dancers aren’t 20 years old?
>> Natalie: The younger generation, maybe, is not so concerned with these things… they’re just like this is a cool tune, I want to play this tune right now.
>> Shannon: That’s American cello player Natalie Haas, who DOES mix it up and innovate in her duo with Scottish fiddle player Alasdair Fraser. But she too, likes to hone in on older sources.
[Music fades]
>> Natalie: It’s really cool to go somewhere and to get to experience the history and the culture, uh, in a way that wouldn’t necessarily happen if we just had this big musical soup of like, oh, let’s play a Swedish tune, oh, let’s play an Irish tune, oh, let’s play a Scottish tune.
[Music:
More on keeping it Scottish AND mixing it up with Natalie Haas, after this short message:
[Music fades]
>> Nigel: It takes a lot of time and a lot of travelling to create this show. If you can kick in, just go to irishmusicstories.org. Any amount helps. Thank you.
[ Music: “Jig Runrig, The Ramnee Ceilidh,” from Highlander’s Farewell
Artists: Alasdair Fraser, Natalie Haas ]
>> Shannon: Natalie started playing traditional music when she was growing up in California. When she wasn’t practicing classical cello, she’d play fiddle tunes with her sister Brittney. Then when she went to Julliard, she’d go to Irish sessions for her trad fix.
>> Natalie: When I was in college, in New York, I was kind of starved for trad music, so I was doing classical conservatory. I would go to Irish sessions, um, as a college student in New York.
>> Shannon: When she wasn’t on the road with fiddle player Alasdair Fraser.
>> Natalie: I always loved going into sessions with the cello. Provided I could get there early enough to stake out my territory, and find a space to visit. We take up a lot of room, horizontally, for the bow! Um, but just as a backer going and trying to contribute something.
>> Shannon: So you’d be chording, providing accompaniment?
>> Natalie: Yeah, I think so. Trying to kind of follow whatever the guitar player was doing, if there was a guitar player and if there wasn’t then I kind of had free rein as to what I did.
I think Irish music is a little bit more harmonically rich. And I love that about going to an Irish session, um, but I do feel a little bit lost sometimes, like, this is not, this is a kind of a foreign territory to me. Whereas at a Scottish session I feel like I can predict where it’s going.
And I’ve heard, you know, a lot of people say that Irish sessions can be insular. And, um, kind of a lot of people ask me, like, “do you ever get any, um, bad mouthing for showing up at a session with your cello? Like, this is not a traditional instrument for this style of music?” But I’ve honestly never had that anywhere.
>> Shannon: Oh, I’m glad!
>> Natalie: People have been so welcoming and, like, love having a cello there, and what it does for the music. So I feel very welcomed and want to do more of that.
[Music: “Adelaide / Keeping up with Christine,” from Ports of Call
Artists/Composer: Alasdair Fraser & Natalie Haas ]
It’s kind of a sad thing that the Scots haven’t really figured out how to have sessions. I’ve been to a lot of Irish sessions where they’ll play a set of Scottish tunes. But there are very few Scottish pubs, and very few Scottish sessions. I think it’s because the Scots kind of arrive when they emigrate, and they infiltrate. They don’t, like, group themselves together so, um….
>> Shannon: Huh. Why do you think that is?
>> Natalie: I don’t know. I don’t know. Not as insular, as a culture, as the Irish.
>> Shannon: Natalie is happy to go to Irish sessions. But like her longtime collaborator, Alasdair Fraser, who grew up in the Scottish Lowlands, she’s an advocate for more Scottish sessions.
>> Natalie: I’ve heard Alasdair say that about Scotland. You know, when he was growing up, um, 30 or 40 years ago. Why are we not playing our own tunes here? But yeah, I’ve seen that too. A lot of Irish tunes get played in Scotland as well. Which is, you know, not a bad thing. But you have to be really strong and we see it in places like Catalonia too, where people, where it’s a dying tradition, and if they want to save it they have to be, like, almost, kind of, vehement about playing their own tunes and saying only Catalan tunes in this session.
>> Shannon: Right! Right!
>> Shannon: Ireland and Scotland were similarly vehement about keeping Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic alive. Ireland insisted that the language be taught in schools for a few generations. And the government offered native speakers stipends for creating regions where Irish is the first language.
It worked. At least for now. Speaking Irish achieved a level of trendiness in the 90s and the early 2000s. And there are still passionate young advocates for the language. We’ll see how the next 20 years go.
But this pride and aptitude in the Irish language that you can find in Connemara and other Gaeltacht regions of Ireland might not be in place if kids had learned a little Irish, a little Italian, a little Swedish.
[Music fades]
>> Shannon: Are there Scottish sessions in Boston?
>> Natalie: Um, well, Hanneke Cassell runs this fiddle camp in February every year, called the Pure Dead Brilliant Fiddle Weekend. She tries to make that purely Scottish in terms of the teaching that’s offered and kind of the session culture. Um, yeah, she’s really cultivated a big following of students that are all playing Scottish tunes. So that’s cool. There’s definitely a Scottish scene here.
The Irish scene is really rich. And I feel socially connected to those people, but not as much musically. But I would like to be!
>> Shannon: Yah, I do think that if there IS that social connection to begin with, it’s an easy musical entree. Sometimes the other way around is harder!
[Hahaha!]
[ Music: “Ron Burgundy Tribute: The Glass Case of Emotion/Sweet Grandmother’s Spatula,” from Silver
Artist/Composer: Hanneke Cassel ]
>> Shannon: Natalie mentioned Hanneke Cassel — the name H-A-N-N-E-K-E is actually Danish. But Boston based fiddle player Hanneke is originally from Oregon. She helped build a Scottish music community in her adopted home of Boston and she started Pure Dead Brilliant in 2007.
>> Shannon: So, Pure Dead Brilliant, how did this happen? Why did you put this together?
>> Hanneke: It’s the Scottish fiddle weekend that I run in February and, um, I was at the Boston Harbor Scottish fiddle school one year, and I was just kind of, I was wanting to come up with a scene where teenagers could just play super fast and crazy and learn really hard tunes. But play Scottish music. You know, there’s all these camps in the summer, and we were having such a great time at Boston Harbor. And we were having a good time at Valley of the Moon and all these places. But you know what, if we had something in the winter? And I was talking with my good friend Jerry Bell, who owned this amazing house and he was like, let’s do this at my house. And so it was really Jerry Bell and Nancy Bell and myself who, kind of like, instigated this whole thing. And it was kind of this amazing mixture of, like, me being able to get a lot of players, like students of mine, and then the two of them just like really hosting, um, in an incredible way. And, and I really had from the start this vision because there was so much Irish music and so much bluegrass, and like old-time and stuff, especially at Berklee, going on, that I really wanted to have a place where the focus was to learn and jam Scottish tunes.
[Music fades]
You can go almost anywhere in the world and find an Irish session. Especially like at a pub. When I think of the times I’ve played Scottish tunes in Boston, it’s been at people’s houses a lot. Like it’s been maybe a little bit more of the party or it’s been at like fiddle camps. There are a lot of fiddle camps with Scottish music in the United States. So, that’s actually the most jamming I do during the year is actually at the camp.
[ Music: “Jenny Dang the Weaver,” from Jam at PDB c/o Isabelle
Artist: Students and Faculty of Pure Dead Brilliant festival ]
>> Shannon: So how come there aren’t a bunch of sessions then to carry that party through the rest of the year?
>> Hanneke: For me, a lot of times when I think of Scottish music, I actually, like sessions are important but actually also, like, the dancing, like Ceilidh dancing is, um, is a big part of the Scottish music scene.
>> Shannon: In Scotland there’s a country-wide raucous, informal ceilidh scene. And in the States the IRISH social dance scene tends to run in similarly informal fashion.
[Music fades]
There are some laid back/crazy SCOTTISH dances in the States, like the Boston Urban Ceilidh that Fiddler Laura Cortese started. But for the most part, STATESIDE Scottish dance events are dressy balls run by the Royal Scottish Country Dance Society.
And the RSCDS Balls—well, they’re not really looking for trendy fiddle tunes with synco-PA-tion.
I think they expect straighter, older style fiddle playing.
[ Music: “Miller of Drone,” from Tall Tales
Artist: The McKassons ]
>> Hanneke: I kind of still like to do both things. Like, I play for Scottish country dances a lot, which is this whole other thing that’s, like, separate from the syncopated trendy tunes. It’s very traditional piano, fiddle tunes from, like, the 17, 18 hundreds. And I love to do that.
And then I also have all these influences that actually aren’t Scottish. Like I started in Texas style fiddle. And I went to Berklee. And I was surrounded by a bunch of Newgrass players. So there’s these other influences that come into my playing.
[Music fades]
>> Shannon: Some of those other influences came in from Valley of the Moon fiddle camp. That’s the annual summer gathering that fiddle player Alasdair Fraser founded in the Santa Cruz mountains in 1984, when he moved from Scotland to California.
>> Hanneke: I was heavily influenced when I went to Alasdair Fraser’s camp, back in the mid nineties, by, um, Laura Risk and Athena Tergis.
[ Music: “Black Bread,” from Journey Begun
Artist/Composer: Athena Tergis & Laura Risk ]
Athena went on to mostly play Irish music. She was definitely playing some of that then, but they were kind of pushing the boundaries for tune writing. And it’s funny ‘cause both of them actually ended up kind of going more traditional as they got older. But that was a big influence on my own playing, kind of like taking the concepts of Scottish music, but writing tunes in this kind of new syncopated style. And then I would hear out of Scotland; I would hear these bands like Shooglenifty and like, you know, just all these, kind of,Silly Wizard, all these things, playing kind of more of these contemporary styles of Scottish music.
[Music ends]
>> Shannon: Hearing other musicians at fiddle camps and hearing bands like Shooglenifty and Silly Wizard. Acts who perform onstage. Conceptual music that may have developed organically… or bands that may have formed after receiving arts funding and performance opportunities… no matter the genesis, commercial, professionalized presentations of trad music are different from informal music sessions.
>> Aaron: You know, some of the greatest music in the world is not the most arranged music. It’s that synergy that you get from people that just have a natural aptitude to play together. And I think that’s, that’s where the magic happens. You know, you can write, you can formulate it, you can write it down on paper. It doesn’t make for a great band. There still needs to be that, and you can only really establish that level of synergy between two players by playing lots and lots of tunes together.
>> Shannon: That’s singer and bouzouki player Aaron Jones again, talking about that spontaneous quality of music sessions, where players can keep it loose and where unexpected inspiration can hit.
[ Music: “Hometown Lullaby,” from Production Music Made for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]
But what if you love Scottish music, and you don’t have a local session. You could host a house session (if you have a house, or tolerant roommates). Or you could perform. Is that it? Is Scottish music in the States more performance-oriented because there aren’t many Scottish sessions? Or is Hanneke right when she wonders if Scottish players naturally have more onstage DNA?
>> Hanneke: When I think of even in Boston, like, the Irish fiddle players and the Scottish fiddle players, a lot of the Scottish fiddle players have definitely pursued performing. I can think of so many good Irish fiddle players, like just phenomenal Irish fiddle players in Boston who actually don’t do that much performing. I don’t know if that is something across the board, like if Scottish musicians are just, like, a little bit more diva-like, and want to be in front of everyone. I don’t know. I don’t know if that comes into play.
[Music fades]
But I remember actually always kind of thinking about that, that there’s these amazing Irish fiddle players who I mostly just see playing, you know, in a pub, and I’m kind of, like blown away when I hear them play.
One thing I love about Boston is that (and I actually think this has a lot to do with BCM fest, and maybe also the music schools).
[ Music: “Julia Delaney,” from Jam at PDB c/o Isabelle
Artist: Students and Faculty ]
But I think that it is one of the few towns where it seems to me that the people at least know each other. There is this mix between the scenes.
>> Shannon: Boston’s Celtic Music Festival has been bringing together Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, and other Celtic traditions together since 2004.
[Music ends]
Featuring performers with ties to Boston, this annual winter weekend has provided a musical and social outlet to different scenes. It’s where I’ve added Scottish tunes to my own repertoire — and taught a few Irish tunes to Highland pipers.
>> Hanneke: I like that. I like that there’s kind of this camaraderie between the scenes. Because sometimes, and again I haven’t lived in another town, but sometimes it seems like there is the Scottish scene and the Irish scene and they just don’t even know each other
>> Shannon: Yeah. It’s a pretty awesome scene here, I feel lucky. I love the friendships, and I also love that you’ve taught me Scottish tunes.
>> Hanneke: You taught me Irish tunes! Which is great.
[Music fades]
>> Shannon: Living traditions change and evolve, especially when new people (and YOUNG people) start playing. And as musicians and dancers travel. And as recordings circulate. And as people share tunes and ideas in the ballroom, at competitions, in the kitchen, on stage, in the studio, and at fiddle camp.
In Scotland, the trad scene seems particularly welcoming of innovation. And of cross-genre collaborations with, say, Irish performers and rappers. And Scotland has regional ‘purists’ that carry on trad tunes. And the arts funding and festivals all add to the stew.
[ Music: “Brooklyn’s Lullaby,” from Lullabies for Love
Artist/Composer: Hanneke Cassel ]
In the States, the Scottish scene seems to have its own rhythm and connections to Scotland and to Irish music. And to innovation. There are neo-Scottish and fusion projects, and fiddle camps that put a premium on creativity.
There are also a lot of fiddle contests, and dressy balls, and Robert Burns Birthday parties filled with tartan and bagpipes.
So, maybe on both sides of the pond, tradition in the key of Scotland is a bit like whiskey (or haggis): it’s a sometimes smooth, sometimes thorny blend of preservation, opportunity, aging, and innovation.
[Music fades]
[ Music: “Bonny Labouring Boy,” from A Different Life
Artist: Emily Smith ]
Irish Music Stories was written and produced by me, Shannon Heaton. Thank you to Carol Zall for initial script editing. To Stuart Harris Logan at the Royal Conservatoire for research support. To Isabell, Malcolm, and Lance for the PDB recordings. And as always, thank you to Matt Heaton for the production music and Nigel, for acknowledging our sponsors.
And thanks again to Sharon Murphy, Mike Lagana, Brian Edmiston, Michael Craine, David Vaughan, Brian Benscoter, Joe Garrett, and Gerry Corr for underwriting this month’s show. If you can kick in, there’s a donate button at IrishMusicStories.org. Every little bit helps. Thanks again for listening, everybody.
OUTTAKE dialog:
>> Shannon: [sighs] So, Wikipedia calls haggis a “savoury pudding containing sheep’s pluck, onion, oatmeal, and suet.” ‘Pudding’ is like the toughest word in there for me, but what’s pluck?
>> Nigel: What’s PLL…uck? What the heck is it?
[Shannon and Nigel laughing]
Related essays
Reflections from Irish Music Stories Podcast episodes 01, 30, 31
Related videos
Episode guests in order of appearance
BOUZOUKI/SINGING
English-born, Scottish-based bouzouki/guitar player and singer who performs with numerous bands including Old Blind Dogs
FIDDLE
Maine-based fiddle player and teacher of Scottish and Cape Breton music, and co-founder of the Boston Scottish Fiddle Club
CELLO
Cellist from California who plays different fiddle genres and performs with fiddler Alasdair Fraser
FIDDLE/PIANO
Oregon-born, Boston-based fiddler/pianist/composer who performs and teaches Scottish, Cape Breton and original music